Some bloggers want to receive press releases, samples and invites. Others don’t.
What is annoying to everybody is when they receive mass mailings and communications from marketing and PR people who haven’t really bothered to do their research on what your name is or the kind of stuff you write about.
The rules for any company engaging bloggers, twitterers or anybody on a social media site have been on my mind for a couple of reasons. First a few PR companies have asked me to talk to them on the subject and a couple of companies have asked me to write plans. Second, I’m presenting at the Victorian Tourism Conference on the 13th May about “Brand Development through Social Media”.
Third, and most importantly, because several of us yesterday received an email drawn from a Google spreadsheet I set up to allow food bloggers (not PR companies) to share who we were fora proposed Australian Food Bloggers Conference in 2010 that may be part of the Melbourne Food and Wine Festival.
What I did was make a huge mistake. I left the Google Spreadsheet open to allow allcomers among the bloggers to add their details so we could all draw on it for top bloggers lists, breakdowns by state and more importantly work out how many people might attend. This was a private list only for non-commercial use but with public access. Reem has now restricted it to herself,myself and Phil and I think I can say we are happy to open it up to any food blogger who’d like access on the condition that it will not be used as a mailing database.
What is annoying that the PR agency involved for Windows Restaurant in Melbourne, a Phillip Bucknell from Bella PR, thinks because it was a charity event there is nothing wrong with taking that data (which was passed onto him by a third party) without asking, with disregard for the copyright of the list’s creators and the opt in/opt out laws relating to spam.
I started receiving emails, as often happens, within 30 minutes from several bloggers asking about the event.
Bucknell thinks it isn’t an issue because of the intention of the event – donations were being given to charity on behalf of the restaurant if I recall.
But I think there is a big issue in taking somebody else’s material without asking – words, pictures, or video or what is a database. Am I right?
He failed to see the problem although perhaps I didn’t explain it in simple enough terms:
“Quick note, if your bloggers were concerned about being contacted, then perhaps a better idea would be to take them [the spreadsheet] off prior to someone actually contacting them.”
And later:
“I refuse to continue this discussion, I would appreciate it if don’t contact me again as I will view this form of harassment.”
What are your rules for engagement?
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It sounds like it was an annoying situation at best. Sorry to hear that you had to deal with that and thanks for seeing to the matter.
With what seems to be a fair amount of experience with these sorts of matters, is this sort of thing an exception to the rule or the norm?
Hi Simon, I’m not sure what you mean about what being the norm.
Ed,
Were there instructions on their email telling you how you could unsubscribe? That is the sticking point with the anti-spam legislation. Unfortunately, the info appears to have been in public domain so gathering the info was probably “legal”, although ethical is another matter.
Regardless of the reason for the mail, unless the PR company and the restaurant are charitable organisations, I don’t believe they are exempt from the privacy or anti-spam act. (From memory, charities are exempt from the Do Not Call register) You can lodge a complaint at http://www.acma.gov.au
Sorry Ed, should have been clearer.
What I meant was with dealing with PR and marketing people such as the one you described, is he considered the norm or that sort of person an exception to the general rule and everyone else understands issues of privacy and the like?
Hope that’s clears up my question
Re Lists – they can’t actually be copyrighted which the reason why recipes i.e. a list of ingredients are not copyrightable. A database is just another type of list.
The attitude of this PR person in rather appalling – perhaps contacting Windows and complaining about their PR people might prove useful – a mass email by the bloggers involved.
Did he ever tell you who this “third party” was? That is usually the point when they suffer memory loss or simply just refuse to talk to you any longer.
SJ,Thanks I think this will be useful for all of us.
Simon, I’m not sure that PR people do understand privacy rules yet they should. When I was involved in issues management for – I hate to say – tobacco we used to keep files on people who are pro or anti. In many areas PRs keep lists and files on people just like this that should be covered by privacy legislation.
With media it is simply. But it is more complex for private individuals who have the temerity to publish something in their own space online and don’t want to be opted into emails.
Everyday I have to deal with unsolicited emails from PRs in Europe or the US who haven’t bothered to check which country I write about. When I ask to unsubscribe they do but it is annoying to have to go through this process the whole time.
I do think it is quite legitimate for PRs to target blogs (and indeed I have advised a few). But the first approach I think you be on the basis of a first approach rather than amass email and the recipient at that point should given the option to opt out explicitly as part of the message.
In this case what has annoyed me is they have taken a d=crowd-sourced list which otherwise would have cost them a lot of money to create themselves and used it without bothering to think about who owns the list, permission, privacy and the social norms.
I would encourage every blogger who received the invite to consider doing what I did. Decline the offer but request the $50 still be given to the charity. Mirabel does great work. I was tempted to attend because of this (Robson, the usual average hotel food – I’ve been to way too many conferences in that hotel in the past to get excited and the dreadful society matrons more than put me off).
I’m still waiting for Philip’s reply, re the money. But don’t worry. I’m like a dog with a bone about such things
Personally, I’m appalled and offended at the cavalier attitude this guy has shown with respect to us. I might have to write him a nasty email.
I hate SPAM!
Dude, maybe you should take a chill pill.
It does sound pretty annoying, but the list was public forum (even by mistake), and it did contain a list of bloggers (new media journalists) who PR companies might like to target. You’re obviously conscious of brand development through social media since you’re delivering a paper on it and individual bloggers can unsubscribe/dob in the spammer.
Just my opinion, I know it’s your forum to do as you will, but I like the recipes and restaurant blogs way better.
Just out of interest- did anyone ask how they got the details? I did and was quite surprised to be told I’d been ‘referred’ by a person who I was not aware I’d given my details to. Hmmm.
Out of interest, is anyone going? Or has everyone boycotted the event due to the questionable way the contact details were gathered?
And Ed, thanks for the post. No one likes to be spammed.
While the “hey we are launching a great new site – we want your content (for free)” posts have been a tad annoying, call me naive but I don’t see the PR invite for a free meal as spam. Ed, in what way was the invite to the same event you received as a journalist, any different to any of ask being invited as a food blogger?
It is like a theatre or concert ‘papering the house’ with freebies when they have undersold. Obviously not many people wanted to cough up for lunch with a B list celeb, so the PR team has gone into papering mode.
In my non-blog life I am overjoyed to get my annual letter from a publicist asking me if I want 2 free tickets to the opening of the St Kilda Film Festival every year, even though I am not in the industry. Same as the odd movie, theatre and concert tickets fall in my lap.
That aint spam.
Being asked to go on Masterchef, being sent bottles of the latest anti-oxidant juice and the like that have done the food blogger rounds in the past year – was anyone complaining that was spam?
Now ads for viagra…that’s another story.
Haalo, I do know who the third party was and they phoned me but they still don’t seem to understand. You are right lists can’t be copyrighted I just find the general attitude that you can take anything as bad.
KP, normal service will be resumed soon.
JdG, it came from the Google spreadsheet of foodbloggers and was referred to the PR company.
AOF, My real point about this is taking the list without asking. Actually I thought it may have been to me as a journalist but when I read on I realise it was to me as a blogger. The difference? Journalists invite contact. Some bloggers don’t want contact. Personally, I’m fed up with a lot of the untargeted crap I’m sent on both counts.
The Rules of Consent.
So – you’ve got a list of names and email addresses. Do you send an email to them?
Very easy to read info on ACMA website (www.spam.acma.gov.au)
Bascially, you cannot just send an email to anyone in Australia unless you are either exempt from the SPAM ACT (i.e. a charity) or you have consent to send the email. (more on this later)
If you do send an email, you MUST make sure you can be identified, have consent of the person you are sending it to, and provide details on how to unsubscribe from their mailing list.
Consent can be direct, or implied. Direct is you filling in a web form which asks – do you want to learn more about (eg) NZ Sav Blanc? If you tick yes, you have given direct consent.
Implied consent is a sticky one.
Under the Spam Act, you can only infer consent through conspicuous publication if:
-the electronic address is published ‘conspicuously’ – that is, it is accessible to the public, or a section of the public (for example, it appears on a website or in a telephone directory or brochure)
-the address is not accompanied by a statement that commercial messages are not wanted
-the subject matter of your message is directly related to the principal role or function of the recipient (electronic account holder).
So – it would seem that the gathering of the data isn’t really illegal (although I’m not certain such a comment wasn’t made?)
I don’t think a PR company is exempt, even if it says it is on behalf of a charity.
The email can still be reported to ACMA if there wasn’t an “unsubscribe statement”
The Privacy Act doesn’t go any further really, unless there was a statement on the spreadsheet asking for no contact.
I’m a little surprised that you’re making a distinction between journalists and bloggers here. Surely by having stuff out in the public domain, bloggers invite contact – or at least interaction?
SJ, That is interesting and really useful. I’m just thinking what does the conspicuous publishing of an email address mean. Can people sidestep this with a contact form? I’m guessing they can.
Lisa, I suppose because I’m a journalist I make a distinction. Blogs do tend to be a personal message but not in the genre of journalism. Journalism would perhaps rely on more research and draw from press releases and events for publication.
I think that is the charm of blogs that they are personal and not news agenda or publicity agenda driven. That doesn’t mean the blogger shouldn’t be targeted as an influencers by PRs as they indeed do target people outside the journalist sphere. I just think there are some different rules of etiquette as there are some subtle differences and blogs don’t run the same Pr led agenda as news. And believe me, you would not believe ho much news is PR driven.
I’m getting about 20 PR emails a day – although like Ed, these are mostly from US and European companies who somehow think that I have a passing interest in their processed shite. The Bella PR one was one of the first from an Australian PR company. It does make me wonder, are these local PR companies doing the same thing to full-time, waged journalists? Maybe this sort of thing works to get your unedited release republished in mX.
For all untargeted PR email, I just sort anything from their domain into my spam box, unless they use both my name and the name of my site somewhere in the text of the email.
Phil,
And let’s not forget all those emails from people who want our content for free without even telling us who owns their site and who they are.
There is a great debate going on about how shit some PR people are just in dealing with journalists so what hope there is for bloggers I have no idea.
Check out Mumbrella for a summary here:
http://mumbrella.com.au/prs-versus-journalists-back-in-focus-5183
In some ways, bloggers are better armed to deal with PR idiocy because we own our own publishing platform – it’s pretty easy for bloggers to create utter mayhem for a PR company on a whim, which is why the smarter PR folk approach bloggers with care. Journalists can’t use their publication to return fire.
Phil
The job of PR – as opposed to plain old publicity-is to create a positive environment for their clients. Pissing people off is an instant fail. And while journalists doesn’t have the luxury of returning fire the blogger way but there is plenty of word of mouth and each has their own shit list. When I write stories I try to be even handed but there are a few PRs/companies who will never ever get a call.
I can see this discussion from multiple angles. Some of the hats buried in my dress up box are blogger, writer, ad man, marketer.
In the last couple of years advertisers have been bombarded with the news that online is the future – over press, radio and TV – as that is where they’ll effectively reach their target market. While that increasingly is becoming the reality with younger/ internet savvy USA & UK audiences – where money flows more freely in marketing circles – we’re a generation behind in Australia.
Our angle here is that anyone, even with a limited budget, can get bang for buck by targeting bloggers, facebook or by using Twitter (often inappropriately). As a consequence there has been a rise in spam, commercial trolls, content scraping and sock puppetry in an effort to get bloggers to advertise products, events and venues via reviews. There have also been sites set up to attract advertising dollars by using blogger content, but with no remuneration to the blogger .
It has fallen to PRs to organise this with small digital teams as Ad Agencies currently don’t have enough savvy or resources to manage social networks as part of their ongoing strategies. The PRs don’t necessarily have the knowledge base either but are happy to have a way to extend their services, but sadly it’s still managed poorly.
My concern is that bloggers should be remunerated for advertising anything. Most are happy with a freebie, but as they say, nothing’s really for free. A simple analogy: If you were given a bottle of Pomegranate Molasses by a marketer, would you take it if they insisted on putting a large advertising hoarding in your front yard? If not, why then inflict a promoted product on your regular blog readers if you’re not being paid to do it? Perhaps this is not considered as blogs in general are not structured around goals, themes or targets in the manner of a formal publication?
I suggested on the Australian Food Bloggers Conference forum that bloggers should have a list that they can opt into. I truly believe that there should be lists of ‘floggers’ available to marketers. At present, a company that is charged with online promotion will look for any means to acquire contact information. With short deadlines and limited man hours, the quickest route might be to be unscrupulous, hence the topic of this post.
An opt in list may alleviate some of the current bad behaviour and it would allow advertisers to wash the data, allowing them to speak to the right people who have synergy with the product/venue etc.
Sounds like a topic for discussion at the Bloggers Conference!
Re: journalists and bloggers. I do know that a lot (most?) journalism is media release-driven. But I don’t know that the distinction between bloggers and journalism is that great – in food blogging, at least (as opposed to simply personal blogging, for e.g.) Food blogging is citizen journalism – reviewing restaurants (previously a print-media domain), sharing (and thus reviewing) particular recipes… it invites response, interaction and debate in the same way that print journalism does. And although anonymity might be more prevalent on the net, there is still a byline – the name of the website (and in many cases, the actual author). It’s true that the rules of engagement for bloggers, journalists, pr agencies and other outlets (restaurants, food companies, publishers, etc) are changing, and we’re still defining those rules. That’s what makes this conversation so interesting…
This is the perfect topic for a bloggers’ conference… interesting, relevant, not obvious, something for new and experienced blogger alike to think about… Get a couple more topics like that and you can get some really fascinating debate (and thus conference) going.
I hope Phil doesn’t get randomly signed up to a load of porn sites by anyone. Can’t say I am surprised by his attitude though, media, PR, car salesmen, politicians. Duplicitous arses not to be trusted.